hosted by Brian Clark
We originally planned for this season finale of the 7-Figure Small podcast to be published a few weeks ago. But our world here in the U.S. changed quite drastically in the interim, so we took a little more time to collect our thoughts before recording.
This episode still focuses on the same topic we were planning to discuss — the importance of choosing your idea audience — but the context is now much different and, ultimately, much more meaningful.
We open with a discussion about an intriguing new online marketplace for “A.I.-generated characters,” and what it could mean for your business, before moving onto perhaps the single greatest example in advertising history of defining who your ideal audience is (and who it isn’t).
Then we address the importance of having core values and being willing to stand up for them, what it means to provide values-based leadership to an audience, and how these ideas come to a head when important societal events happen — like the recent murder of George Floyd and the ensuing protests and national discussion about Black Lives Matter and race in America.
How do you decide when it’s time to take a public stand and make your thoughts and feeling clear to your audience, even when it’s obvious there will be some negative reaction? And is it possible that we overrate how much negative reaction there will be? Brian and Jerod use their own recent experiences with other audiences to provide some insight.
All of that and more on this season finale episode of 7-Figure Small.
Links
- AI-Generated Characters
- I’m a Mac ads
- How Public Opinion Has Moved on Black Lives Matter
- The Assembly Call: A cause worth fighting for
- Further: And Justice for All
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Or search for “7-Figure Small” wherever you listen to podcasts.
Transcript:
Why You Must Choose Your Ideal Audience
Jerod Morris: Welcome to 7-Figure Small, the podcast that brings you the stories and strategies that are driving the growing number of solo businesses achieving 7-figures in revenue, without investors or employees.
Here are your hosts for this edition of 7-Figure Small — serial digital entrepreneur, Brian Clark, and me, Jerod Morris.
Jerod Morris: All right, Brian, we have not been in people’s podcast feeds over the last few weeks. We were originally going to do our season finale for the 7-Figure Small podcast a few weeks back. We delayed it for Memorial Day, and then obviously, the world has changed in the ensuing two weeks.
As I’ve kind of looked around, I’ve noticed different podcasters handling this differently. Some people are maintaining their set schedule with what they have and just putting out an episode with the thoughts that they have on that day, either addressing world events or not addressing them with what they’re talking about.
Others have kind of taken some time. I’ve seen some podcasters that have taken a few weeks off and basically said, “Look, addressing complicated topics, doing good thinking, saying something meaningful can take some time. And I want to take some time to do that. We, especially for this show, have fallen into that latter camp.
We had something planned for a few weeks ago to do the season finale. We’re still going to talk about that because it’s really relevant. And it also leads in to addressing what’s going on in the world within the context of how that is going to impact how the folks who listen to the show go about their business.
So, that’s our goal here for this episode.
Brian Clark: Yeah, the topic is exactly what we were going to talk about before the George Floyd incident happened and the protest and everything. It’s just taking on a more poignant and relevant experience of the topic, I guess.
It provides an illustration of exactly what we were talking about in probably its most extreme form in the sense that speaking out about racial justice and Black Lives Matter is not an exercise in marketing. And yet, you have to be able to speak your conscience to the audience you have without fear. That is a huge issue.
I think we’re going to go ahead and address this topic about choosing your audience as we originally intended with some cool sci-fi level artificial intelligence and some marketing strategy elements that we teach in our paid training. And we’re going to tell you how that all relates to the current situation.
Even though both of us spoke out to our other audiences a couple of weeks ago, we refrained from talking about this for Unemployable. Like you said, just to take a minute and think about and listen a lot before you speak is one of the more important lessons that I think people of our race (white men), gender can do more often, I think.
We did that and now we’re ready to say something, so let’s see how it goes.
What Would Your AI Spokesperson Look Like?
Jerod Morris: Let’s see how it goes. Let’s start with some of the things that we’d planned on talking about originally. You sent me this link to alethea.ai with some very freaky videos on it, which are extremely interesting.
Let’s talk about what this is and what it means. These AI generated characters that this company is producing.
Brian Clark: Of course, we talk a lot about emerging technology on this show, how it can enhance the one-person or very small business to scale without the traditional trappings of large amounts of hiring and escalating expenses and whatnot. There’s really an opportunity, of course, for this whole 7-Figure Small thing to be enhanced in ways that have never been possible before with technology.
Basically, what this company is doing, they’re an AI production studio, and they basically are creating synthetic media that allows businesses to create spokespeople, human-like customer service and personal representatives for your company. They’re made up of a composite of real people, but they’re not real people, they’re artificial intelligent agents.
And that brings to mind a very poignant question, I think, that every business owner, but especially the type of businesses that we’re talking to on this show, what would your spokesperson really look like? What would they stand for? What are their core values? Who are they?
Normally, in these types of businesses, it’s us. The individual runs it, our “personal brand has to represent the broader brand that we’re trying to create. More importantly, and I think this is the point, you have to represent and stand congruently with the audience that you’re trying to attract.
Yet, most people don’t do that. They just want an audience. They’re just so happy someone is showing up and that’s a major mistake.
Number one, it impedes your ability to grow an audience in the first place. Number two, it really inhibits your ability to bond and engage with that audience at the level you need to be sustained as the 7-figure small business.
So, first question, what would your AI spokesperson or representative look like? This is not really an academic exercise because we teach this exact thing about creating whatever you want to call it —a persona, an avatar. I call it an audience archetype. It’s basically, “What does your audience member look like with regard to the commonalities and beliefs that they all share together? They’re all different people.
Eventually, with technology and segmentation, you can treat them as individuals, but they all have to share certain things in common. And, ideally, they share things with you as the business owner.
That’s really the gist of the initial question, why this AI caught my eye. I’m just like, “Oh, wow, this is amazing. It’s an amazing opportunity to use technology in a really scalable way. But people have to understand, “Well, what would that person look like? Again, that’s to the heart of the matter.
Jerod Morris: Yeah, because when you go to the site, the thing that’ll jump out at you is there’s a video of Baby O which is basically a deepfake style video of a baby that looks like Barack Obama talking with a voice that sounds like Obama’s voice. And there’s one for exotic Don, I think, like a mashup of exotic Joe and Donald Trump.
But the rest of them are more generic characters, composites, like you said. And it’s pretty clear that if you’re going to use a service like this and use it right for what we’re talking about, you’d really have to go through that leg work and sit down and think about, “Okay, who is my person? What do they look like? What do they represent? All of those things to be able to do this correctly. And that’s what makes it really interesting and so full of potential.
Brian Clark: For years now, I’ve used this one example from Apple because I have not been able to find a better example of an avatar or character that a brand used to not only represent literally a product of theirs, but also the core values of the brand. But also (and this is what really blows people’s minds), it represents the type of customer that Apple was trying to attract.
Now, that is brilliant marketing right there. And yet, I think it’s the core of all effective marketing going forward because you have to stand for something. And that has to be congruent with the people you attract to you. It has to be intentional.
Again, this is an intentional exercise in crafting a profitable audience where you can help them and they can help you because you have this shared worldview and these common values.
So this was the “Get a Mac campaign that ran — I think it was 2006 to 2009 or 10. I think it ran for four years. It was highly profitable for Apple. It was named the advertising campaign of the decade by Advertising Age. It was the “Get a Mac campaign.
If you remember this, Justin Long represents the Mac. And I always forget his name…
Jerod Morris: John Hodgman.
Brian Clark: Hodgman, yes, another very talented comedic actor, represents the poor PC who is just kind of a bumbling dork.
Jerod Morris: He was a tool.
Brian Clark: Yeah, they weren’t that mean to the PC though, but it was quite clear that the Mac was super hip and cool, and PC was just sad and antiquated.
It was a very simple commercial, two actors in front of a white screen. I mean, you could do a YouTube campaign with very little budget to do something similar to this. I don’t recommend necessarily creating a real brand character, but with this new AI, you could.
What I tell people is you need to know who that character or avatar or audience archetype is because that’s who you’re speaking to. A lot of writing advice or any sort of content creation says write for one person. But if you’re writing for one person, that person has to exemplify the entire audience. Again, at one level, everything that the audience believes congruently without taking into regard yet the ways in which those people are different.
But that’s what was so great about it and why I use that example, because it hits all three. He’s supposed to represent the Macintosh, but really he represents the core values that Steve Jobs exemplified and tried to attract all the way back to the launch of the Macintosh with the 1984 Super Bowl commercial.
It’s basically creativity, rebelliousness, rejecting the status quo. It all started with the Macintosh being the foil to IBM, the big corporate gray dehumanizing technology, while the Mac was for the individual, the creative, the rebel and the “Think Different campaign, the “Crazy Ones campaign. It was all congruent in Apple displaying what their core values were, and they attracted intentionally a certain type of person.
That’s what was really brilliant about that commercial campaign, and I think why it was so important. They created a character that represented what they stood for, but also who the audience aspired to be. At the same time, they created a character, the PC, of the type of person they were actively pushing away.
Apple’s not being dumb here. They knew they couldn’t convert hardcore PC users. No way, those people hate Apple. They were converting the swing user, the person who started with a PC, because that’s what you did. And now, they’re like, “Well, maybe I’m an Apple person. Right?
How to Create an Engaged Audience
Jerod Morris: The big idea here, it seems to me, is you don’t just want to create an audience. Maybe in the very beginning of the web, you could just create an audience and have success with it. But you have to create an engaged audience. You have to create an audience that really pays attention to you, your ideal audience.
Just having an audience doesn’t matter. It’s not going to drive business results for you. It’s not going to keep you motivated. The people in the audience aren’t going to be that excited.
The way to do that, the way to have an engaged audience is you have to stand for something so that people find reasons to say, “Hey, I’m with that guy, I’m with that gal. And I think that’s what we’re getting at with this. It’s not just about creating an audience, it’s about designing the ideal audience, finding those people, and getting them excited about coming into what you’re doing.
You’re not going to do that being passive, by not understanding what that link is between your worldview and theirs. And that’s the big idea. How do you create an engaged audience?
Brian Clark: Yeah, that’s absolutely right. Yet, you see so often, whether it just be general marketing or content marketing, this bland, whitewashed (no-pun intended) content that, “Oh, we don’t want to offend anyone. Well, no one cares about you, okay? Because you’re not standing for anything and you’re ignored. The opposite of love is not hate, it’s apathy.
You have to be able to attract an audience intentionally that reflects your own worldview and your own core values, so you can communicate authentically without the fear of saying the wrong thing, that fear: “Oh, I lost subscribers. If you’re doing it right, you are happy when you lose subscribers because you’re getting rid of the wrong people and making room for the right people.
We could talk about this more concretely, but that’s the gist of it.
Authentic communication, people are just like, “That means I just say whatever I think or whatever I feel. But if you have the wrong audience, they’re going to hate what you think and feel. It’s the audience who determines whether they think you’re authentic to them or not. So, it doesn’t matter whether you are being authentic if you’re speaking to people who don’t see things the way you do.
Now, we may all wish that we didn’t have a society where we have to speak to our people and ignore other people, but I’m afraid that’s how it works. And let’s be honest, marketing is always that way. You’re always going after a target market, a target audience.
This is not new, and yet, I think too many people come to, whether you want to call it content marketing or an audience-first business, just thinking, “As long as I get enough people, I’m going to succeed, and that’s just not correct. Because you’re either going to speak your mind and alienate too much of your audience, or you’re not going to speak your mind and you’re not going to stand for anything, and you’re not going to have an engaged audience — if you have an audience at all.
Jerod Morris: It doesn’t mean that you have to be blatantly or explicitly disrespectful to the people who aren’t in your audience. You’re talking to your people and giving them reasons to come to you. Now, this will also give those other people a reason to reject you.
But marketing in this way and audience building in this way, it doesn’t have to be mean. It’s just you’re drawing lines in the sand for what you stand for. And it’s like, “Hey, if you want to be with this, come with me. And if you’re not, that’s fine. You’re not my concern. And some people do this — the people that are not in their audience, insult them as a way of drawing their line in the sand.
You don’t have to do that. It’s not about being mean-spirited. It’s about showing what you stand for and letting the people congregate around you who share those beliefs. I don’t want it to come across like you have to explicitly reject these other people and say nasty things about them. That’s not what it’s about.
In fact, some people who would be part of your audience wouldn’t respect you if you did that. So, I think that’s an important distinction to make.
Brian Clark: Yeah, I’ve said many times, you don’t have to be overtly controversial. You don’t have to be intentionally demonizing of the other. People will segregate themselves based on their own beliefs and identity over anything. I mean, say anything that matters and someone’s not going to see it that way. That’s okay. That’s actually great. Because the people who do agree with you feel like, “This is my person.
This is so important. Unity, as Dr. Robert Cialdini pointed out when he added after 20, 30 years, an additional element of influence, not only added to the original six, but said it was the most powerful of all — and it’s unity. Meaning, we listen to and trust people like us more than we trust an objective so-called expert, or institution, or other form of traditional authority.
So, how are you going to influence people or persuade them if they don’t feel unified with you? You can’t. That’s the world we live in, that’s people.
And this is probably worse than it’s ever been in politics. But this dates back to through evolution, through tribes and communities and sports teams: “I’m like you, you’re like me. We’re different from everyone else together.
You don’t have to explicitly attack the other people. All you have to do is say, “I’m like you, and other people go, “Well, I’m not. Okay, there you go. It has to be done, but it doesn’t have to be ugly. Unfortunately, too many people do take the ugly route.
Jerod Morris: I mean, sometimes it can work in the short-term, but you’re not going to build long-term value that way.
Brian Clark: Unless you’re that type of person who gets off on controversy and pissing people off — believe it or not, I’m not one of them, even though I’ve done it plenty of times. But that’s what I’m saying, I’m not trying to alienate anyone. I just know that I will. And that’s okay and it’s fine. I don’t lose any sleep over it, but I think I couldn’t sleep at night if I were intentionally ugly all the time.
Providing Leadership to Your Audience
Jerod Morris: The other thing that’s important here, Brian, and why having that qualifier in front of audience is important — you’re building your ideal audience, not just an audience — is we talk a lot about, and you talk a lot about, how important it is to understand who your audience is and listen to your audience. Your audience, they’re going to teach you about the things that are important to them and what products you’re going to develop and all of these things.
But you do have to guard against just pandering to the audience or just completely being led around by an audience. If you’re not very specific about the people that you’re serving, this could happen, because, ultimately, your audience is coming to you for leadership. They are coming to you because you are an authority on some topic, and they’re trying to learn from you or be led in a good direction from you. They want you to help them solve problems.
If you’re not providing that leadership, thought leadership, value leadership, you’re not going to have the respect of that audience. You’re not going to keep them engaged for long.
So it’s not about pandering to an audience and telling an audience what you think they want to hear, it’s about understanding the audience enough to know what they need to hear and taking stands that are important to you so that the audience knows where you stand on those things.
I think that’s important to mention because you can’t just, again, kind of be led around. You have to be the one leading as well.
Brian Clark: That’s exactly right, Jerod, and it’s such a good point, because we talk about thought leadership. And that’s really what content marketing and audience building, audience-first businesses are about.
I’ve said in the past, “You don’t really need to say ‘thought leadership.’ You’re a leader. I mean, people don’t follow you if you’re not a leader. But that’s a very important responsibility, I think. Whether you want to call it thought leadership or just leadership, it’s about shared values and ultimately, objectives and worldviews, right?
Again, we’re kind of framing this in the context of politics right now, even though, as we’ll discuss, I don’t see any of this as a political issue. But, in order to lead, people have to believe and desire similar things that you’re trying to help them with. How can you guide someone if they’re not interested in going where you’re trying to take them?
Peter Drucker once said that culture eats strategy for breakfast. Now, what does that mean? That means that you can be a brilliant strategist and try to lead, whether it be troops into battle or your audience to their perceived idea of success. And yet, you can’t do that if you don’t share beliefs and ultimately behavior, the action that you’re trying to get them to take in order to achieve their objectives.
So that’s what that statement means. You can have the greatest strategy in the world, but if you’ve got an audience that doesn’t see things the way you do, they’re not going to follow you. I mean, you may keep them strung along.
But I’m convinced that the difference between having an audience and having something that resembles more like a movement — and by movement, I just mean a group of people with commonalities that seek to take action. There’s a difference. Action is the difference between a successful engaged audience and one that’s passive, and maybe why “audience shouldn’t be the right word, you know? But, anyway, that’s a different topic.
Basically, as a marketer, as an entrepreneur, you have to act as a mentor to those who are seeking to go on a particular journey. And if you don’t share a similar worldview, they’re not going with you.
So, there’s just really no point to worrying about, “Oh, what if I say the wrong thing? Say the right thing for you, what you believe. How can you be a thought leader if you’re afraid to say what you think? It makes so much sense, and yet, we see this paralysis and this fear of saying the wrong thing.
Now, don’t get me wrong here. If you say something that’s insensitive or inappropriate for your ideal audience, they’re going to tell you and you better listen.
Oh man, my only objective really with writing, and I’m a big believer that persuasion is really about clarity — yes, you’ve got to tell them the benefit to them and the shared values that you all seek. But if you’re not clear, you could say something wrong inadvertently. And if you do…
First of all, be careful. Be very careful with your communications. It’s important, it’s all you’ve got really. It’s all any of us have in this type of business. So, always pay attention. I’m constantly editing something I say or write when I know what I mean, but can it be viewed as meaning something else? And that’s a tough thing.
Jerod Morris: I’ve probably spent 15 minutes on a particular tweet trying to get it to say what I want. And then I’ll be like, “Nah, this is too unclear. I cannot make a point, I’m deleting it. I’m not sending it.
Brian Clark: I tweet so less often now, because of that. I’m like, “This is funny. Oh no, but it could be not. So, it’s better to say nothing if you can’t be clear. But it’s never better to say nothing because you’re afraid just on the content of what you’re trying to say, the substance.
Jerod Morris: It may just mean that you need to choose a different medium to say it, too. Twitter might not be the place to say it.
Brian Clark: Yeah, exactly. That’s the problem with Twitter. There’s not enough room.
I’m not in any way saying to ignore legitimate feedback or pushback, because maybe you didn’t understand an issue that someone who has a different perspective… That’s good. Again, the whole idea behind building the ideal audiences is so they can give you feedback, so they can tell you what else they want, especially in the form of products and services.
So, this is not about ignoring feedback, this is about ignoring people who object to your values if there’s no reconciling that. Are you really going to change your core values to save an email subscriber? No. Not even a customer, honestly, when it comes down to it.
And I think you’re seeing that. I mean, we can dive into this a little bit deeper, but you’re seeing massive outspokenness (if that’s the way to say this) in light of the recent racial disharmony, because the tide is changing and no one wants to be on the wrong side of this issue, because there is no other side when it comes to murdering people and racial injustice. There’s just not.
Now, some people will disagree with that and that’s okay. And you can also not listen to me.
Let’s get into action here right now, Jerod. Because if people think I’m just paying lip service to this, they don’t know me very well.
When Is an Issue Worth Addressing with Your Audience?
Jerod Morris: No. And we are both on record, as we said, in other venues giving our exact thoughts on this issue.
Let me ask a general question to lead into this, because when it’s a situation like this, kind of a big, broad situation — when is that worth addressing with your audience? Is it okay for something like this to be going on and not say anything about it and not say where you stand?
Or when should you say, “You know what, all right, I know this isn’t directly applicable to marketing or whatever, but I’m going to say how I feel about it because it’s that important? Because I think some people are struggling with, “How do you make that decision? I know how I feel about it. I’m not necessarily afraid to say it, but is this the right venue for it?
How do you do that calculus?
Brian Clark: Yeah, that’s a good point. Again, I want to stress that in this particular case, this has nothing to do with marketing, yet somehow standing up for what you believe in has everything to do with it. It’s just a very dicey situation.
I think that’s why we took some time before we came to this particular venue. We’re here to teach you how to start a business and how to market and how to succeed. It’s not a political show. I mean, Jerod and I talk politics before we hit record. And then we come on right, you know?
Jerod Morris: But isn’t that the point though? I don’t see this as a political issue. This is a people issue. And that’s why, to me, it transcends that. I wouldn’t talk about politics on this show, but this is different.
Brian Clark: Like I said, this is not a political issue. I’ll give you an example of that.
There are times when I will state my position on something or my opinion in the context of marketing or entrepreneurism. I’m almost infamous for this. I’ve had friends in the industry who are just like, “Yeah, you’ve never been shy about calling things bullshit when you see it.
And I’m not, because in my experience, if I feel that way, then I need to share that with the audience. Some people disagree and they can go. Because if it’s a core value within the context of say, building a business, how can I not share that?
Okay, this is completely outside the scope of this. But I decided to speak out two weeks ago on Further, and I say it in the closing paragraph of what I wrote: “I could not live with myself if I didn’t.
That’s your indication right there. I said, “As a comfortable white man, I could just say nothing and just hope it all blows over, but I can’t live with that.
Now, you want to talk about what happened because I took that stand?
Jerod Morris: I can guess.
Brian Clark: Well, honestly, nothing bad in my mind. I got three notes of disapproval, three out of an audience of over 10,000 people. One guy seemed to agree with me on police brutality, but he hated Colin Kaepernick, so he just went unhinged on that. Okay, delete!
A very nice woman wrote me and told me how much she loved Further and how much she looked forward to it. And she’s just like, “I just really don’t want you to get political. And that’s when I was about to reply and go, “How do you see this as a political issue? How is murdering people by the people who are supposed to protect us a political issue?
And I know people do see it as a political issue, but like you, I don’t. Instead though, I just let it go. I think she’s still subscribed and that was just her way of sharing how she felt. I disagree with her, but fine.
Then the third note — this was the one… It’s funny, because it made me laugh, but it also annoyed me more than the other two. My basic call to action in that last paragraph was, “I hope you feel the same way too. And this guy says, “I don’t feel the same way, goodbye.
And I’m like, “Man, what makes you think I give a fuck what you think? You know what I’m saying? That’s what got to me. The fact that this guy thought he mattered to me when he’s clearly on the wrong side of history and everything.
So that little snarky reply, I’m like, “What compelled you to think that mattered to anyone?
That’s enough on that. What I got were three times, 21 to 25 notes of thanks.
There’s a New York Times article that just came out that said public opinion in support of Black Lives Matter has increased in two weeks more than it did in two years. So maybe that just represents a changing tide. I certainly hope so.
But I think also that I’ve done a damn good job of choosing my audience. They know who I am. No one thinks I’m a radical leftist. I am not a virtue signaler, I’m a registered independent my entire life.
Here’s a good example for you. The Republican Party and Fox News have chosen their audience and they’ve excluded me on purpose. I think they’ve excluded you on purpose. Is there a world where we could vote conservative on certain issues? Absolutely. But I’ve been excluded on purpose.
Fox News is great at what I’m telling you that you have to do. I heard someone say once that they don’t tell stories about the news, they fit the news into the story they’re telling. And they’re brilliant at it. There’s no doubt about it. It’s not good for the world, I don’t think. But if you’re outside the realm of politics, you have to choose your own audience because that’s what marketing is.
They, unfortunately, are in the business of political news. So the story they’re telling is divisive, but so is MSNBC. Hey, I’ll probably annoy some people by saying that, but that’s the counterpoint that the left thought was necessary. And maybe it is.
But most of us are somewhere in the middle of the two extremes. And yet, we’re forced to choose between two stories when we really try to choose based on issues. And on this issue of police brutality and racism, I don’t see it as political.
Jerod Morris: Yeah, I agree. And I think this question of “When do you address something like this? I think context is always going to be so important for when you address it and how you address it.
You talked about how you addressed it with Further. Look, that’s a site where you are teaching people, showing people how to have a good mindset. So, for you, as you said, to not address them, you couldn’t live with yourself if you didn’t. I think addressing that with an audience like Further in the way that you did made sense, because you can always address these issues on your own, like your own account. And, of course, people will see that. But it’s a little bit different with how you address it with a particular audience.
With the Assembly Call, which is a show about a college basketball team, for us, with my co-hosts, we all felt personally strongly about it. And I knew that we all felt the same way about it, but we had a discussion. I couldn’t just do this on my own, because I’ve got three co-hosts that I represent, too. To do anything from the show, I had to get their buy-in and they were all in with it.
To us, in that context, it made sense to go public with a statement, to email it out, because what we’re doing with the show is 35 times a year after a game getting on and critiquing the play of mostly young African American men. We’re building the show, basically talking about these guys playing. And this was a huge issue to those guys who were making statements about it and being public about it. To us, in that context, because we support the players through what we do with our show, we felt that we had to say what we had to say about it.
Frankly, a big part of our audience is from Indiana. Indiana has a very complicated racial history, and we just felt being able to use that platform to keep the momentum going and hopefully give other people maybe confidence to step up and speak — those two things added up to it making sense in that context to say something.
When we put it out by email, I had a similar experience to you. Vast majority of the people were very supportive: “Thank you. This was one of the best things you guys have ever done. This makes me love you guys even more. And a few, “Stick to basketball. Why are you even talking about this?
Brian Clark: “Shut up and dribble, someone told LeBron James that. That’s crazy.
Jerod Morris: The point I wanted to make, Brian, is I think that’s the reason why even though we were quicker to say it there, I do think this context, talking about it from an Unemployable sense, it certainly took me a little bit more time to figure out, “Okay, what’s the right way to address it with this audience?
And so, I think context does matter. The way that you’re going to address an issue like this, you’ve really got to take that context into account. It doesn’t mean that it changes how you feel about it, but the way that you present it and the way that you explain it, I think it should, and it does.
Brian Clark: Context is everything, of course. You don’t build an audience without context. It’s always within a certain topic. People still struggled trying to choose a niche (or niche depending on where you’re from), but that’s not enough, that’s just a starting point.
I always say, “Choose a big topic and then narrow things down by who you are and what you stand for and how you communicate with your audience.
It was so interesting to me, three of the notes of thanks I got were from black women who shared with me… I mean, it was just so touching and heartbreaking how they raise their children in a world like this, where they teach them to be positive and inclusive themselves, and yet, they have to teach them to watch themselves on the street.
I mean, can you imagine? It’s hard enough being a parent and worrying about your kid in general, and then having to worry that that’s something bad’s going to happen to them unjustly because of the color of their skin.
Those notes really got to me and all three said, “Thank you for being so brave. I know you lost people over this and I respect you more though, personally. So, I hope that matters. I wrote back and I said, “That’s all that matters. And if you think I’m worried about people who don’t like what I wrote being gone, no, I don’t want them. It’s okay. Please don’t worry about me.
Now, I’m over here thinking about you. Indiana is a red State. I mean, your context arguably was much more brave than mine. Like I said, I have been building audiences for 20 years. Further is chosen according to what I’m telling you to do right now.
But, again, people sign up and generally they make their way out the door just by the topics I cover, the words I use, without ever getting into politics. Like I said, that’s how you craft your audience. Some people unsubscribe, but the people who you resonated with are forwarding the email to like-minded people.
So, you’re not only gaining more people than you lost every week, you’re gaining more of the right type of people and the right type of people only means the ideal type of person for you. It is not a value judgment.
Again, I do think some people are not on the right side of things. But in general, the right type of person doesn’t mean they’re morally superior to anyone else. They’re just the right type of person for you.
But you didn’t hesitate to speak your mind and stand on your core values. There are a lot of good people that love Indiana basketball, yet you knew you were going to get some of that, “Shut up and stick to basketball.
Jerod Morris: Yeah, for sure, we even talked about that. But I think that’s part of the criteria that you can use in a situation like this is, “Okay, look, this is important enough to me.
If someone is going to leave our audience or unsubscribe because of this, do I really care? I even said that to the guys when we were talking about it in Texas. I was like, “We’re going to lose subscribers because of this. And a couple of them were like, “That’s fine. And I feel the same way.
Actually, one of the people that I’ve gone back and forth with a lot, and this has actually been a very useful dialogue back and forth, he feels completely differently and has his set of beliefs and assumptions that he’s bringing to the discussion. I vehemently disagree with him, but we’ve actually been able to have a somewhat productive conversation back and forth about it. And this guy’s actually one of our biggest donors to our show. I don’t know what the outcome will be. Is he going to donate? I don’t care.
I’m not going to sell out what I believe is the right thing to do for some money, because I couldn’t face the audience and I would lose my enthusiasm for doing the show if I did that. Obviously, that’s easy to say when it’s not your number one line of income, it’s maybe a little bit of a different calculus.
But I still think that applies. You can’t just constantly be willing to sell out what you believe because you’re afraid of losing or you’re going to lose the personal connection that you have to the subject matter and the audience in the first place. And that’s a powerful thing; it can also be a delicate thing.
So, there are just some of these times where I think you have to, for your own soul, as a content creator and leader of an audience, step up and say what you believe in. And this, to me, was clearly a time that it was important enough to do.
Like you said, sometimes you can focus so much on what the negative response is going to be, you don’t focus enough on, “Hey, you know what? This is going to pull a lot of people closer to us and share it. And it’ll bring in additional people, because they’ll say, “Wow, those guys actually stand for something. Or, “I didn’t realize that I felt the same way as those guys. I respect that. Let me go see what’s happening there.
Even if you’re looking at it from a pure like, “What am I going to lose? What am I going to gain? (which is not the reason to do this in the first place), but if that’s what’s keeping you from doing it, sometimes it’s easy to overestimate the negative reaction and not properly calibrate for what it can mean to the people who follow you and who listen to you. Even the courage that it will give them to step up and say, “What’s the right thing? because they perceive you as doing something that was very risky. All of those things are just part of the equation, and part of taking a realistic, pragmatic look at it.
This situation warranted stepping up and saying what we believe there. And I certainly knew that we would here eventually. I think we both just wanted to make sure that we put it into the right context.
Brian Clark: Yeah, again, I think you made a good point — that the fear is usually overstated, and it’s the wrong thing to focus on.
For example, there’s an average number of people that unsubscribe from every issue at Further. And the post where I spoke out, I called it “And Justice for All, lost exactly 34 more than usual. 34? Is that something to be afraid of? I mean, no. But again, not only was that minimal, but all the people who said, “I respect you so much more than I already did. How can you even put a value on that?
Again, this is not marketing, speaking out about this issue. The respect that I have with my audience in the first place comes from telling the truth, whether you like it or not, on the issues that are pertinent to the context. And that’s content marketing and entrepreneurism. So, that’s the baseline level of why people listen to me in the first place.
But when we come to an issue where… I remember the weekend before I wrote that Further piece, I think you asked me if you wanted to record this episode then. And I said, “I can’t, dude. I can’t think straight right now. Until I wrote that piece, I couldn’t think about anything other than that. And then I wrote it and I sent it, and I had peace with myself. If nothing else, that’s why you do it. You have to live with yourself.
In my experience, if you’ve got the right audience, you just came to peace with them as well. There’s almost a sense of relief that the person you follow and the people I follow who are leaders to me — I was very incredibly proud of their response. People I’ve mentored or who have been a part of Copyblogger’s past, people who have grown into their own, stood up and spoke out.
I was just thinking if you’re in the world of content marketing or entrepreneurism, and you’re like, “Everyone’s pissing me off because you’re all standing up for this issue, I’m like, “Maybe the problem’s with you.
But anyway, there are definitely people out there who are building their audiences with a very different take. Fortunately, it just seems to be definitely on the minority side of things and that hopefully will continue to be the case even more so as we go forward.
Again, that’s not really the point here. The point is, as Dave Chappelle said when he received the Mark Twain Prize for Humor… Dave Chappelle is very outspoken, very wise. Sometimes he just makes everyone upset by making certain jokes, and that’s his point. He said, “Be nice. Don’t be afraid. And what he means is you don’t have to be an ass, but you have to speak your mind. You have to stand up for — you say what you’re going to say. And I think that’s incredibly poignant.
Jerod Morris: Yeah, I agree. It’s not your job as a thought leader to make sure everybody is comfortable with your opinions. It’s just to make sure that you’re giving your real opinions.
So, anyway, it was probably not a great way to transition out of that topic, but I’m glad that we were able to address it.
I thought it was interesting that you didn’t know that I was writing my post, I didn’t know that you were writing your post for Further. We were kind of doing it independently. We were on that call, we’re like, “Ooh…
Brian Clark: I wonder if people think I call you up and I go, “What are you going to say about this? We need to talk about this. No, you say what you want to say, man. You can say what you want to say in this context. I’ll never stop you unless you’re wrong, of course.
Jerod Morris: This is going to be the last episode for a while. We should probably end on this note and let people know this is the end of the season. We will be back, but not in a while.
Brian Clark: We will be back and we’re going to do some really cool stuff that Jerod and I are working on fleshing out.
Part of it will be interviews that serve more as case studies, like really concrete examples of people who have built 7-figure small businesses in various, not just online communities or online education, but e-commerce, freelance, service models, because it is a model that works for any business — or revenue model, I should say.
We just want to highlight more of those stories to not only give you inspiration, obviously, but to give you some insight. While there’s a common audience theme to all these businesses, how people go about it really depends, again, on who they are and who they’re trying to attract, and the worldview that drives them and bonds them to the audience.
So, I think that’s the next phase that we need to go into with a lot of examples, in addition to, of course, trying to provide some instructional stuff to get you to the next step, the next level.
Jerod Morris: Yeah. In the meantime, you can go to the nextlevelseven.com, if you haven’t done that already. We definitely recommend that you do that. We’ve got an offer for you there, an email course for free that you can take. It expands on some of the ideas that we talk about here on the show, so that’s definitely something good to do in the meantime.
Other than that, we’ll be back in a little while with more episodes here of the 7-Figure Small podcast.
Brian Clark: Yes. And if anything we’ve said in this show has offended you, don’t go away mad, just go away.
